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#SwellBookClub #books #BookReview #AuthorInterview 📚

@bowie
Bowie Rowan
@bowie · 2:08

INTERVIEW: Dan Bozung, author of This Civilian Sh*t Is Hard: From the Cockpit, Cubicle, and Beyond

article image placeholderdanbozung
You go on to talk about getting defensive in response to this feedback, but ultimately realizing there was something to this tough feedback that you were receiving, something that stood out to me throughout the book is your ability to foster self awareness with a sense of humor that really struck me. And it's something I really loved about the experience of reading your story and enjoying your pros

https://www.danbozung.com/books

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@dan.bozung
Dan Bozung
@dan.bozung · 3:50

Why this book? Convo with Bowie.

And any storytellers primary job, I think, is to engage, connect with and ultimately entertain an audience. And if I was able to do those things for you, that's really exciting for me. And I hope there will be other books. I hope that I can keep at this writing thing for a while, and I sincerely hope that engaging with the reader like the way I think I was able to engage with you from the sounds of it. I hope the thrill of that never fades
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@bowie
Bowie Rowan
@bowie · 3:05

@dan.bozung Lessons learned & writing to understand

Dan, I'm so excited about so much of what you said. Firstly, you were talking about the advice you got or came to at some point along your writing process about. So don't write until you have something to say. And it reminded me of one of the first pieces of writing wisdom I received in College, which essentially our instructor to every piece we wrote just said, So what or what's the so what?
@dan.bozung
Dan Bozung
@dan.bozung · 4:50

This is art! And lessons learned

So I Dan definitely relate to feelings you may have had back in College. And in terms of the book and my approach to it, I actually got some really good feedback from a friend who saw an early version of the manuscript. And at first it was just a collection of those stories. And there were no lessons learned. And the feedback was the stories are kind of interesting, kind of entertaining. But what's the point? Like, what do you want me to take from these stories?
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@bowie
Bowie Rowan
@bowie · 3:47

@dan.bozung Relationships & inspiration!

So I'm really as a reader glad it's included as well. Speaking of outside voices and just this book is so much about relationships and the way we impact one another for better or worse. And something I really admire about your general worldview throughout is that those are always opportunities to learn something new about ourselves. And I guess I'm just wondering, are there any writers or business folks or people in the Navy?
@dan.bozung
Dan Bozung
@dan.bozung · 3:00

Sutton, Hemingway, and a refusal to be defeated.

And then finally, regarding the inspiration as we've discussed before, certainly the book was very much kind of my own attempt to understand my own experience so I could learn from it. But as time went on and as I was capturing these stories, I found myself getting kind of emotionally defiant for lack of a better word regarding the people I was writing about. So I refused then, and I refuse now to allow Andrew or Jill or Lauren or Gerard or King John
@bowie
Bowie Rowan
@bowie · 2:55

@dan.bozung Audience, Shitty Bosses, Leadership

And I thought that was really beautiful and as like a character or voice on the page because you and I don't know each other personally, I could really connect with you over that because I'm someone who also really wants to work for something that has a meaning beyond just my own kind of self serving purposes. And I wonder if looking back, do you think actually having those s***** bosses taught you the most about what makes a good leader
@Swell
Swell Team
@Swell · 0:15

Welcome to Swell!

@dan.bozung
Dan Bozung
@dan.bozung · 4:05

Not just for military, front seat to history, the value of bad bosses.

And then finally, to what extent have I learned from bad bosses? I've learned a lot in a couple of ways. One, the bad bosses I've had as a civilian helped me better appreciate and understand why the good bosses I had in the military were such great bosses. What's specifically about their leadership style, what's specifically about them personally, their personalities, the way they conducted themselves, the way they treated me, what in particular made working for them such a positive experience
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@bowie
Bowie Rowan
@bowie · 2:03

Quotes on good bosses

And I just found this to be such a useful metaphor for thinking of what is successful leadership. And it's very much in line with the experience I've had with really good bosses that inspire me, and that I would go above and beyond for and you mentioned later on in the book, a captain who you say, as with me, he afforded most members of the crew a long leash, stayed focused on results just as a good boss should
@bowie
Bowie Rowan
@bowie · 3:33

The Life of an Artist in Business

So what I love about the above is that in addition to outlining throughout the book, what at the very least you shouldn't do if you don't want to be a s***** boss is that there are certain things you can do to be be a good boss that Aviate navigate communicate. I'm going to remember that forever now, especially when I am in a position of leadership to help others learn how to avoid what you call helmet fire, which I loved so visual
@dan.bozung
Dan Bozung
@dan.bozung · 3:46

On the shrink’s couch, risk, an artist’s temperament

So I really appreciate your taking the time to recognize that you talk about kind of is there an art to my career, which is a really interesting question. And you said, hey, it doesn't sound like you have any regrets. And I don't think I do. I will say regarding regrets if my career were to end tomorrow and I didn't have an opportunity to apply all the learning of the past decade or so, then I'd have some regrets
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@bowie
Bowie Rowan
@bowie · 3:50

A winding road! This conversation is now open to all.

And as far as what you mentioned at the end of the book, I think that's what really sealed the deal for me is seeing how I loved that you sort of ended where you began in some ways, like there was this circular structure where it starts out being like that quote with your friend saying, Man, I didn't know you were such an a****** and then ending there like, maybe I still am. Who knows?
@sudha
Sudha Varadarajan
@sudha · 4:03

You are fearless in your honesty - mark of a great leader! Any regrets?

But the most striking thing that I took away from this whole book was your honesty, how you could look at this entire experience you've had with the most honesty, and it shows through in your stories where you've been very honest in your depictions and your self reflection. And that, to me, was the most striking. And that's where I think today's leaders find themselves lacking when they don't have that level of honesty that you have depicted in this book
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@dan.bozung
Dan Bozung
@dan.bozung · 4:54
I get that little notice that hey, such and such huge profile. So I guess they found out about the book. There's actually more to the story and more that I'm doing to kind of mitigate this kind of risk regarding specifics. I can't really get into it right now
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